Ask me anything about the Indie Hackers podcast

The two questions I always want to know about everyone else's podcast! I asked @abadesi the first one when I came on PH Radio this Monday :-D

Let's see, in total the podcast has 4,115,595 downloads across 104 episodes, so that averages out to 39,573 downloads each. The median download count is similar, almost exactly 39k. Some recent episodes have reached 40-50k downloads in their first month or two. The most popular episode has 105k downloads, and the worst-performing episode that's been out for 6+ weeks has 15k downloads.

As for growth, I don't do anything particularly special, but I've noticed a few things:

• Word-of-mouth growth is a tremendous force, and it primarily correlates with episode quality. For example, my #2 episode was with a guest that nobody had ever heard of, who doesn't have a big audience, and we didn't do anything special to promote it. But I've gotten more positive feedback on that episode than any others, and the downloads piled up. People are just sharing it because they like it. The opposite is also true. Mediocre episodes don't get as many downloads. (I'd say quality is 50% the guest I bring on and 50% my performance as the host.)
• Consistency is huge. If I miss a week or two, downloads drop. When I'm consistent for months at a time, download numbers grow. I just recently doubled my release frequency, and I'm curious to see what effect that has.
• Guests with big audiences who do a good job promoting their episodes on Twitter etc tend to get lots of downloads. Adam Wathan is a recent example. But they still don't get as many downloads as the best episodes get, even without heavy promotion.
• I don't do any external promotion on other websites etc, but it obviously helps to be able to send out my episodes to the IH mailing list.

I'm interviewing Sam Parr from The Hustle next week. They recently started a podcast that they're sending to their mailing list of 1.5M+ people. I'll definitely ask him some questions about how that's going.

Hey Ryan, how many listeners does PH Radio get each episode? 😊

It ebbs and flows. Recently I've really been enjoying it, mostly because I've been creating more room in my schedule to prep and record. It's not fun at all when I have to rush through things, but it's super fun when I get to take my time researching guests, thinking of interesting questions, and just talking to interesting people.

To build on this, how often do you record? Do you record an episode and release it the same week, or are you able to build up a backlog of recordings and schedule them to be posted in the future? How long is said backlog (if it exists)?

Probably editing. You can outsource this for cheap ($20/episode), but I'm a perfectionist, so it's tough for me to simply record an episode and send it to my editor without doing a pass myself. It usually takes 3-5 minutes of editing per 1 minute of audio. If you have a complex show with music, sound effects, ads spliced in, etc., then I expect it'll take even longer.

Runner up is preparation. Again, this is optional. But it takes me about 2-4 hours of prep before I'm ready to go into an episode. That includes researching the guest, listening to other podcasts they were on, reading their writing, and coming up with my list of questions. Sometimes I procrastinate and only spend 30 minutes prepping beforehand, and then my questions suck.

I guess I should mention guest selection. If you've got an interview show then picking the right guests is everything. I want founders of successful, scalable, bootstrapped tech businesses, who are both great storytellers and great tacticians. Not always easy to find.

Yep, at least 5 or 6 times now. I really should do it more often. I don't think it's fair to listeners or good for the show to ever publish a mediocre conversation. Then again, if I were better at vetting guests, this would probably never happen in the first place.

I've never lost a recording. I use Zencastr to make a local recording on the guest's end, and I simultaneously record on my end by piping my speakers' output into an input channel. I'd have to be super unlucky to lose both recordings.

Lots more on the way! What'd you like about it? Anything in particular you think I should do more of?

Interesting question. I don't think about this as much as I should. I can't just give one answer, so here are a few:

• Jason Fried, the founder of Basecamp and author of Rework; Nir Eyal, the author of Hooked; James Clear, the author of Atomic Habits; and Josh Kaufman, the author of The Personal MBA. Whenever I interview authors I tend to read their books beforehand, so I learn a lot.
• Julian Shapiro. Growth expert, full of info, and a good friend of mine.
• Ben Halpern. He runs a site very similar to IH, so it was fun mining him for information.
• Jason Cohen. It's hard not to learn from him any time he writes or says anything. Wish I could follow him around for a week.
• Natalie Nagele. Really got me thinking about different ways to run a business.
• Adam Wathan and Wes Bos. The world of course creators is nuts, and they're two of the most successful.

I'm leaving out a lot for sure.

I actually don't spend as much time as it may seem on Twitter. I try to tweet insightful things when inspiration strikes and stay silent otherwise. I'm not sure I could produce that much more podcast content with the time I spend on Twitter.

I also think there's a certain sense in which being absent from Twitter can reduce a tech brand's relevance, a bit like if Coke were to stop all their advertising. I can't back that up with any data, but with a bunch of anecdotal evidence that people feel like IH is more of a "thing" when we're tweeting regularly, and I suspect that helps us with landing guests, etc.

So probably the sweet spot for me is keep spending a couple of hours on Twitter every week, but no more, and then spend my remaining time writing code and working on the podcast.

Mostly that I now just listen to other podcasts with a maker's perspective, probably like a chef visiting other restaurants. I'm always evaluating how good things are and how my podcast compares, what I can do better, whether I can learn anything from them, speculating about their audience, etc.

Btw poker got crazy last night! We were up playing til 3am and raised the blinds to 5/10 😬

I don't listen to a ton of startup/tech podcasts. I mostly just listen in preparation for my own episodes, or just to generally keep myself sharp and in the loop. My favorite shows aren't are in other fields: Conversations with Tyler is great, as is Dan Carlin's Hardcore History, and many episodes of Making Sense with Sam Harris.

The ideal IH podcast guest matches the following criteria:

• founder
• business is scalable (SaaS, e-commerce, etc.) rather than an agency
• business is in tech
• self-funded
• confident speaker
• has an inspiring story
• has original tactics and insights
• willing to be transparent about numbers
• some name recognition or an audience
• etc.

I usually just listen to other podcasts people have been on to get a sense, or watch talks they've given. To some degree you can just rely on name recognition. If I hear this person's name come up over and over again, they'll probably make for a good guest.

What I often tell guests is that I want every episode to be inspiring, educational, and entertaining. This means some combination of sharing numbers, tactics, and stories.

But I mostly just aim to make the show "not suck." That's literally what I'm thinking about going into every episode. I feel personally embarrassed when I release an episode that isn't received well, so honestly I just think a lot about trying to avoid that feeling. 🙈

The podcast has always been a secondary priority behind other parts of IH, so I haven't been able to give it the focus and attention that it deserves. In recent weeks that's changed, and I'm giving it a lot more of my time. As a result, my questions, my goals, and my process for choosing guests to bring on are all evolving. The goal that I feel myself zeroing in on is for each episode to have a high density of insightful exchanges seamlessly woven into a good story.

For people that aren't famous or do not have much to read or see online, how do you get information about them?

Ask them for information over email. For example, you can ask what parts of their story seem to resonate most with others, what parts they care about most, etc. You can also ask them to point you in the direction of things they've written, interviews they've done, etc. Quite often I'll have a 20 minute phone call with a guest a week or two before their episode airs. Almost everyone agrees to that.

Or does your interview start from the minute you talk to them?

Nope, I never start cold. I usually book a 75-minute slot on the calendar and we spend at least a few minutes talking to each other before I hit record.

Do you give your guests some guideline for preparation? Hardware/Software/Questions?

I rarely send out questions beforehand.

How much of the recorded material are you ending up using?

Usually 100% of it, but quite often I'll cut out an exchange or two.

Why did you decide to go for a 1+ hour podcast?

Randomly chose that length without thinking, then stuck to it.

Do you cut out excessive "ahems, ums, errs" of your guests?

I tell my editor to do this. Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't. I'll emphasize it more to him when I think the guest really didn't come off as well as they should have. It's really important for me for the guests to sound great, because I personally hate it when I go on podcasts and don't sound my best.

Do you concise answers to questions of your guests?

Not sure what you mean here, missed a word. Do I give concise answers if they ask me questions on the air? I dunno. I can be long-winded, but I try not to be on my own podcast. The episodes are about the guests, not about me.

How do you decide on which parts are interesting and which parts can be cut out? Do you ask other people's opinion on that?

I just use my judgment. Everyone's opinions here are wildly different. I'm often surprised by people loving episodes I thought were mediocre or vice versa.

Nothing egregious comes to mind. I've had to throw it away a number of episodes that didn't go well, which isn't great news to deliver to the guest, but is still better than releasing. Luckily I've never lost any recordings. I get some occasional criticism for not having profanity warnings or a sufficiently diverse cast of guests.

Nope it hasn't changed.

I wouldn't say there's more or less pressure. Nobody at Stripe is telling me how to run the podcast or even inquiring into how I make decisions about it, so I feel completely independent there. Plus there's no need for me to run ads, so there's less pressure to make money. But I do care about making the acquisition a worthwhile one for Stripe, so I have some added internal pressure there.

Generally, the longer I work on the podcast, the more I want it to improve. I'd hope the last 10 episodes are always better than the 10 episodes before that. I worry sometimes that I'll run out of ideal guests, but so far so good. It's probably not a rational worry.

Not much has changed in terms of capabilities. I can probably get my boss to intro me to some people who otherwise wouldn't agree to come onto the show, given that he's the CEO, but I haven't really asked for that yet.

Indie Hackers started as a blog. The blog got a lot of traffic via Hacker News, which allowed me to build a mailing list. Then I grew the podcast off the back of the mailing list.I'm not 100% sure that people would've heard of the IH podcast if not for the website or the mailing list providing a springboard.

Then again, the first month the podcast only got 8k downloads total, and last month it got 265k, so it's come a very long way. Nowadays there are tons of people who've heard the podcast but never been to the website.

I haven't done anything particularly special. What @AlexDaro said is true: just be consistent, show up every day, and do your best work. Podcast downloads go up when I'm putting out good episodes and I'm releasing every week. They stagnate or go down when I take long breaks or release mediocre episodes. Pretty simple.

I suspect the subject matter is important, too. People won't listen to just anything. The IH podcast does well in large part because of the kinds of conversations we're having, and the fact that there exists a "market" of listeners who really benefit from listening to these. If I "showed up every day" to record a podcast about underwater basket weaving, I probably wouldn't get many downloads!

I might be able to answer this one on behalf of @csallen. I’ve realized recently that it comes down to “doing the work”. Waking up every day and consistently, relentlessly getting out there and being vulnerable. It’s honestly not magic pixie dust going from zero to one. It’s hard work and an insane level of focus.

Here’s a little story on how I found the indiehackers podcast. One day around 2016, maybe 2017 I randomly searched apple’s podcast player for dev related stuff. I think I downloaded some random JavaScript podcast (wish I could remember which one it was). There was an episode where they interviewed @csallen giving a horribly recorded talk on how he started indiehackers. The quality was so bad 😂 but I was immediately hooked. I then looked up IH and have been a fan ever since.

Mad respect to the people that pull it off ✊🏻 Most of us fuck around all day.

I get a lot of inbound requests, but I mostly ignore those. There seems to be a very high correlation between people who ask to be on the podcast and people who don't make for great guests. There are exceptions, but those are usually people who I already know by name and would've gotten around to inviting anyway.

Listeners will often suggest people for me to invite on, and I've also tried to make a habit of asking my guests who they think I should interview. A lot of these suggestions turn out to be great once I do some research on them.

Recently I've added a new type of episode called "quick chats" to the podcast. For these I just look at people posting great milestones on Indie Hackers and send them an email inviting them on.

As far as outreach, I almost always just send a Twitter DM or an email. I'd estimate 90% respond and say yes, 5% don't respond, and 5% say "yes but later."

I've got a very long list of people who I'd like to invite on, and I'm always working my way through that backlog. Probably the biggest challenge is that I'd like the podcast to be a bit more diverse, but it's hard to find founders who match my ideal criteria.

https://expeditedtranscripts.com/

I edit using Adobe Audition. I like it, but I've never tried anything else. It gets the job done. I barely use any of the features tbh. I'm sure there are some good ones I don't know about. My editing is limited to trimming, deleting, and occasionally re-recording clips. I have a "real" editor who does sound quality stuff.

People seem to like the episodes where I'm in the room with my guest — Lynne Tye, Vincent Woo, patio11, Shola Akinlade, and Danielle Baskin. But I'm not sure if the correlation implies causation. It's probably the case that I only plan in-person episodes with people I know will be great.

The top mistakes other podcasters make? Hmm. I don't know if I'd call them mistakes, but there are things people do that I don't particularly like:

• not taking the time to prepare good questions for the guest
• talking to much as the host of an interview show without saying anything particularly insightful
• not having a compelling theme for their podcast as a whole, which means they bring on random guests and don't appeal to any particular market of listeners
• corny or obnoxious intros and music
• trying to talk "like a podcaster" and copying what other podcasters are doing, resulting in a show that's totally undifferentiated therefore unremarkable
• not asking follow-up questions
• volume issues, e.g. the episode is too quiet, or the speakers are at different volumes (I've had some of these with my podcast, too)
• quitting way too early, before they even get to 8 episodes

Yep lots. I almost always say no unless it's someone I recognize and like, e.g. James Clear.

Yep, more info here

When I started the IH podcast, I rarely ever listened to other tech or startup podcasts. I don't remember thinking about the competition a single time.

Nowadays I'm more aware of all the similar podcasts, but I wouldn't say I'm competitive. I'm more just curious about how they work, and how I can learn from them to make my own show better. I actually enjoy listening to a few of them.

Only on a per-platform basis. For example, Spotify will show me stats for Spotify listeners, same with iTunes. The numbers are all over the place. On average, people listened to Pieter Levels' episode for 90 minutes! I've had some episode where people only listen for 20 minutes on average.

How do you keep track of episode ideas, which guests you want to reach out to, those you have already contacted, whether they agreed, when you will record with that guest, etc?

I just write it down. I use Notion. Love that app.

What information do you require/ask from guests before they come on the show? Do they provide this information by filling out a form, replying to an email, in-person on your call before you hit record, other?

Nothing. I regard it as my responsibility to prepare. Guests shouldn't have to do anything imo. I do invite them to have a 20-minute prep phone call with me a few weeks beforehand, but it's optional.

When in the process do guests provide you with a headshot for the podcast page on the website?

I just grab their Twitter photo.

How much/what information do you provide guests so that they know what to expect before agreeing to record an episode? I created a short (~300 word) guide that I send to potential guests to give them an idea of the commitment they are making and what the recording process looks like. This seems to be working well so far, but I only have 4 episodes live so far.

I normally don't send anything about this. I suppose my calendar invite says it'll be a 75-minute block of time, and to wear headphones.

Do you send any questions or outline to the guests before recording, or is your research just to help you make a list of questions that you keep to yourself and use during the live recording?

Nope, I rarely send guests questions in advance. I've done it maybe 5 or 10 times out of 105 episodes recorded.

Do you coordinate episode publication dates with guests, or do you just choose a convenient date for your calendar and inform guests when the episode will go live?

I usually publish when convenient to me. Once or twice I've tried to coordinate with guests, which is easy to do when I have a backlog going, but difficult to stick to otherwise. I really don't want to miss weeks, so sometimes I have to release episodes earlier than planned if I don't have enough material recorded in the interim.

Listen to the guest, don't make it about you. People will get very bored very fast hearing your same opinions episode after episode. IMO way too many interviews spend way too much time talking. That said, some people have told me I don't talk enough about myself, so perhaps I'm too extreme in my belief here.

Listening well also helps you ask great follow-up questions, which listeners appreciate.

Spend lots of time prepping your questions. It's always surprising to me how much better my questions get with just an extra hour of work. And guests really appreciate great questions.

Be flexible. It's good to have a plan going into an episode, but free-flowing conversations rarely stick to a plan. You have to be comfortable with that and adjust, rather than trying to force things. If you're interviewing someone else, you never truly know what you're going to get. They might be tired, they might be long-winded, they might be overly concise, they might go off-topic a ton. But the goal is to present them in their best light, so you just have to go with it.

It's hard to say how much practice helps. I suppose if you're very deliberate in your practice, you go back and listen to past episodes, you take notes on how you can improve, etc. One thing practice certainly does is make you more comfortable. I used to get nervous before episodes, but now I don't.

Lastly, develop your own style. Humans are copy machines. We all feel more comfortable copying others than blazing our own trails. But humans are also novelty machines. We get bored of hearing the same old things and crave information we've never heard before. If you want to give people novelty, you have to resist the urge to copy others. It's not comfortable, but it's the only way.

I haven't had any sponsors in 2 years, but I did have sponsors for the first month or two of the podcast. Back then I was averaging something like 1k downloads per episode and charging sponsors $300 for a 30-second ad slot, I believe. That's actually quite a lot on hindsight. I'm not sure that could've scaled, or I'd be charging $24K/episode today for two ad slots :-D