10 years without making a single dollar online

JT of No Code Founders and Tiny Empires indie hacked for 10 years before making a single dollar on his products. Then something clicked, and he's had multiple acquisitions.

I spoke with him to understand what changed. Here's what he had to say. 👇

Build tiny empires

James: So you're into building "tiny empires".

JT: I grew up in the Steve Jobs era, where I idolized tech CEOs and assumed that was what you were supposed to aim for if you wanted to build a tech business.

James: What changed?

Over the years, my priorities shifted. I got married and had kids and realized I didn’t want to spend 80 hours a week building a business.

I also realized that small businesses can change the world in more positive ways than large enterprises, just by being helpful to a small group of people.

Indie Hackers has always been one of my key sources of inspiration. Seeing people building $15k MRR businesses from the comfort of their homes sounded like a much better approach than spending my life building a public company.

At the end of the day, the average salary in the UK is £35k, so you only need a really small business to have a very comfortable life.

James: So you started valuing time over money and prestige.

JT: Time is way more valuable than money. That's why I prioritize it. Often, when you increase revenue, you actually decrease your money:time ratio (i.e. your hourly rate). This is because:

• Running costs increase
• The business becomes more complex which makes it less efficient
• You hit tax thresholds

In many cases, you could put in twice as many hours, but only make 25% more money. In this case, the most efficient option is to work fewer hours to the point where the work:money ratio begins to drop.

The Tiny Empire method focuses on time, rather than money (whilst still having a solid income) and allows you to use your time on things that matter more than sitting in front of your computer.

James: How much money should an indie hacker aim for?

JT: I think you need to make more than breaking even.

But my overall philosophy is to have a revenue target and reach it, then maintain it rather than focusing on growth at all costs.

If the revenue grows organically, great. If not, that's fine too.

10 years of failure

James: It took you some trial and error to get to this point.

JT: I attempted to build startups for 10 whole years before I made a single dollar online.

James: That's a long time — what wasn't working?

JT: A lot of it was because I was chasing the wrong things. I was chasing the CEO lifestyle. Trying to be the next Steve Jobs.

Every startup failure taught me an important lesson, though, which I took forward and made sure to avoid the next time.

James: How did you have the motivation to keep going after so many years of "failure"?

JT: I knew I was getting better at business, so I always figured it was just a matter of time. Didn't want to give up 10 feet from gold.

James: So how did you turn it around?

JT: I think I just got to the point where I had made so many mistakes that I then knew everything NOT to do — learning the right path, by knowing all the wrong paths.

Another major factor was discovering no code, which gave me a lot more control over what I could build.

James: What were some examples of your failed products??

JT: An unsigned band hub, an online magazine, e-commerce hair extensions, a wedding directory, a wedding blog...

James: That's quite a spread.

JT: Yeah, I was mainly looking for market opportunities, rather than trying to find something I was passionate about. Also, I'm genuinely interested in business, so trying different sectors was interesting to me.

James: After these failed, what worked?

JT:

• A remote job board that got acquired by We Work Remotely
• A blogging platform that got #1 on Product Hunt and was acquired
• I pivoted the wedding blog and that got acquired
• No Code Founders community, which is still running

I’ve recently started writing about my experiences in a weekly newsletter called Tiny Empires which is now my main passion project where I evangelize the benefits of running small businesses and explain how to do it effectively.

James: What did you sell them for?

JT: Don't think I can share numbers.

James: You're still working on No Code Founders and Tiny Empires. What's your revenue?

JT: This year, I've transitioned NCF to being a free community and I'm removing a lot of the monetization for it, as the goal with it is to help more people build businesses. It will probably end the year at $100k.

Tiny Empires isn't monetized yet. But I did create a Tiny Empires course which I sell through the newsletter and have currently grossed $6k from that.

Finding organic growth

James: How have you grown your products?

JT: Most of the growth was organic.

With No Code Founders, consistency has been key. I've been running it for 4 years, so the small additions made each day have built up and we now get 500 new members joining per month. Most of these are from Google, but again, this has been organic growth. I've not done any intentional SEO, other than optimizing the site.

James: How are people finding you on Google then?

JT: We've been featured in some pretty big publications like the New York Times and Fortune magazine which has given us a boost on the SEO front.

James: And Tiny Empires?

JT: Again, it's organic. I have an opt-in on the NCF onboarding page so that I can build both simultaneously.

Other than that, I've shared on a few places like HackerNews and Reddit. Some of these posts went viral, which also led to a lot of growth.

4 tips for building a small business (and his no-code stack)

James: As someone who teaches about building small businesses, what are your hot tips?

JT:

1. Avoid businesses that require scale
2. Don't charge low prices
3. Target businesses, not consumers
4. Don't choose a large market

James: Do you consider your current products to be B2B then?

JT: Most of my businesses are consumer-facing in some way, with revenue on the B2B side. e.g. No Code Founders is sort of a consumer site despite targeting founders and professionals, but 95% of the revenue comes from sponsorships and B2B services.

Businesses spend money WAAAY easier than consumers. Targeting businesses is a much easier way to make money as a small business.

No code: Making indie hacking more accessible

James: Okay, let's circle back on no code. You said it was one thing that saved your entrepreneurial career. Tell me more about that.

JT: No code is a divisive topic. Some hate it, others love it. I’m in the latter camp. My passion is for the entrepreneurship part of building, not necessarily the building itself, so I see no code as a great tool to help more people do this.

James: Definitely makes indie hacking more accessible.

JT: There are a lot of people with startup ideas who don’t have (or don’t desire to have) the technical skills needed to build an online business. This is a major barrier to entry.

No code removes this entirely. You can build full-scale SaaS products using tools like Bubble. You can release simpler mobile apps using tools like Glide. Or you can use off-the-shelf platforms like Substack to launch a media business (not really no code I know).

I think what’s so great is the sheer extent of options that people have. Depending on your technical level or the type of business you want to build, you can choose a tool that fits you perfectly.

James: What's your current no code stack?

JT: I keep it as simple as possible. Bubble for No Code Founders. Substack + Podia for Tiny Empires.

James: So I take it you don't know how to code.

JT: I’m not a developer, no. But ironically, I've become fairly technical by using no-code tools. Over the years, I’ve picked up quite a lot of HTML, CSS, and Javascript.

James: Why not go whole-hog then and become a developer?

JT: I actually really enjoy building products so I do have an interest in coding, but I’m more interested in the business side of things. I'd rather spend time launching ideas into the marketplace than spend it learning to code.

No code: Why it makes sense

James: Are there benefits to no code other than removing barriers?

JT: It increases the speed of building ideas. This allows you to test ideas much quicker and iterate much faster.

James: What about beyond MVPs — is no code scalable?

JT: I see this in a couple of ways.

Firstly, I only think you will need to rebuild from a platform like Bubble once you reach a massive scale, so in the majority of cases, no-code platforms are a suitable option for most businesses.

Secondly, some no-code platforms like Bildr and Flutterflow allow you to export your code, so you can start on them and get all the benefits of building quickly in the early stages, and then have the option to export the code and build a custom-coded solution from that later.

James: Makes sense. Any other benefits?

JT: Generally the running costs are also very low which is why I recommend no-code tools in Tiny Empires — it allows you to build a very high-margin business on your own.

James: I'd have thought running costs would be higher since you have to add in the subscription for the no-code tool.

JT: I would have assumed this too, but I think it's because you only have to pay for one thing. A coded startup will need to pay for AWS and other tools, many of which may increase costs depending on usage.

Bubble has recently moved to usage-based pricing which has made it less attractive, but you can still start at $29 and easily run a niche business on that plan. Other platforms like Webflow have more fixed pricing e.g. $14/month for a 150-page site with 250k visitors.

No code: Drawbacks (and tips)

James: What are the drawbacks?

JT: Scalability to build an app with millions of users, like we talked about.

There are also some security issues, such as the location of data which might prevent you from building certain types of businesses, like fintech for example.

And some platforms don’t allow you to export your code which means you can get locked into certain platforms.

In most cases, there are ways around these issues, but these are the most common objections I hear.

James: Outside of industries like fintech, can you really build just about anything?

JT: The more complex no-code tools like Bubble are very advanced and can build pretty much anything. They just use a visual interface to build the logic, rather than typing out the code manually.

Some platforms like Bildr also let you see the code as you build and even edit it, so you can have the best of both worlds.

James: Any tips for folks who are new to no code?

JT: No code is such a large landscape, every person's path is different. There are some very simple tools and some very complex tools, so for me, the main thing is to choose the tool that's right for you.

Don't necessarily follow what everyone else is doing. Find a tool that fits the job you're trying to get done. Make sure it is fairly future-proof (e.g. it's not going to go out of business and pricing won't skyrocket as you scale). Then get building.

Build your business around your lifestyle

James: Ok, what else do indie hackers need to know?

JT: You shouldn’t focus on scaling your business. Instead, plan the lifestyle you want to have. Craft the business around that.

Set a revenue goal, reach it, and then relax. Consistent revenue is the goal, not growth.

James: Love it. Where can people find you?

JT: X or Linkedin

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